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I am right and you are Wrong because you are Gay.

Ok, this topic is just stuck in my head and this post is an attempt to finalize it and stop talking about it.
I used to believe that the Gays (it feels disrespectful to type "The Gays", better terminology anyone.) were committing a sin.
I was raised conservative, not crazy right wing, but right of center.
I was brought up Lutheran and still consider that to be my Faith of choice.
I completely believe in God. In my way I believe in God, I believe in what I believe in. Kinda the only way, right?
I had a tremendous conversation with someone whose opinion I respect on Friday, and the whole thing started with him saying the Gays were sinning in response to a blog post of mine here. His basis for saying the Gays are sinning was/is the Bible.
It went a whole lot deeper than that and was never decided as any religion argument probably never will.
My only contention in the thing that I wish he would agree upon is that the Bible is an evolving document just as we are all evolving in our understanding.
I believe in the Bible and I think it was inspired by God and we should all learn from it and live our lives according to the things we learn.
Just not literally. We can not interpret a document that old literally, in my opinion. As we get smarter so must our understanding get better.
Watch this video and comment if you wish. I am too far right of center to say I loved The West Wing, but this is a great moment in TV writing right here.


Don't forget all these good discussions either.

16 comments:

  1. Nate "on your team" DoggMay 19, 2008 at 8:46 PM

    I can only comment real quick because I have to go to eBay and buy the complete West Wing series on DVD. It was and still is a favorite show of mine.

    Gay marriage (and many other issues that Nora mentioned) are impossible topics. I will go as far to say that NEVER will there be a time where there is enough social momentum to put out that fire one way or another. NEVER. I think that is terrible, but I belive that completely.

    So, in my world, I simply choose not to play along. If people cannot legally get married in Kansas - I'm sorry for them, but ok. If they could, I'd be happy for them and wouldn't care.

    I often ask my self what would it be like to be gay (don't let that spin of onto another thread). I don't know how upset I would be...but I know it wouldn't change the excitement I had for the man that I love. Okay, I had to...that just cracks me up.

    Moral: maybe those of us that want to make change, should focus on things that we truly belive in and that can really be impacted.

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  2. the notion of basing 21st century beliefs on a literal intrepretation of Leviticus is nuts anyway. In addition to Sorkin's splendid writing on West Wing, my favorite site that pokes fun at this concept is www.godhatesshrimp.com :-)

    and i'm so left of center that we'd probably have some interesting political discussions if we don't start throwing beer at each other. :-)

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  3. Cody says:

    "I believe in the Bible and I think it was inspired by God and we should all learn from it and live our lives according to the things we learn.
    Just not literally. We can not interpret a document that old literally, in my opinion. As we get smarter so must our understanding get better."

    Damn straight, dude. Let's also remember in Deuteronomy 22:11, it says:

    11"(A)You shall not wear a material mixed of wool and linen together.

    People like to pick and choose which elements of the Bible they cling to for their own purposes. And I bet the majority of those people are wearing poly-cotton blends.

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  4. haha! one thing about being raised Catholic, you don't learn the bible literally. This often stuns Catholics when they get out into the wider world and realize there are "Christians" who think YOU are gonna burn for all eternity because you don't have that literal belief. After twelve years of school with priests, nuns, and brothers, you just look at them with a WTF??? look and move on. :-)

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  5. Everyone ...

    Great comments

    Nate - i don;t know if not playing is right imo!?!? Just not sure, I do it sometimes but this one kinda riled me up.

    Yatpundit godhatesshrimp.com is great, Catholics are cool and i would love to get together and throw beers sometime.

    Nora, thanks for great comment, The poly-cotton blend comment was awesome.

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  6. I have an announcement. I am gay... gay as a pickled turnip for this blog. I mean, juco football one minute, global warming the next, then gay marriage. Sprinkled in with a dinosaur contest. Incredible.

    Cody, last month after, what, 25 years of using a PC (Dad got me a PC Junior and I learned BasicA in fourth grade) I switched to Mac. I guess the thought of having to use Vista coupled with those commercials got me. Well, three weeks after moving everything over and refiguring out how to run my business on Apple, the *!?* (edited for Baylee) hard drive crashed. Lost a bunch of data (hadn't figured out how to run Time Machine yet), and more importantly, my RSS feeds.

    Point is... I have bad luck, and I finally have my computer back and will start listening in on the blog and commenting again.

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  7. Nate,

    Great to have you back.

    Gay as a pickled turnip is currently my favorite quote...

    I knew those Apple commercials while entertaining were all propaganda.

    I am now on a Commodore 64 just to poke a stick in the eye both Bill Gates and Steve Jobs.

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  8. Let me start by saying this is the first blog I have ever responded to, so bare with the rookie. It might be harder to bare with me as you read this because my thoughts/opinions are not mainstream. I consider myself more of a follower, than a christian because being a "Christian" can mean so many different things. I am a follower of Jesus. Most people that I have come in contact with don't have a problem with Jesus, but with wackos who call themselves Christians or those who do crazy things in his name. It saddens me to see how much time and money the "right" spends on judging the gays. Christians today seemed to want to categorize some sins as more hideous. If people can just judge gays as sinners who are going to hell, then it takes the responsiblity off of them to actually get to know the people and their stories. So the people on the far "right" bother me quite a bit. However, the people on the left are troublesome as well. They want to truth to be something that man comes up with in his on heart or through their own experiences. "What might be truth to you, might not be truth to me." I am sorry but this is a line of crap. Truth doesn't depend on my experience or my thoughts. It exists independently.
    There are definitely a lot of subjects regarding God/Bible that are gray areas. If we could understand everything about God, and why he does the things he does, than why would we even need a God? However, there are some absolutes. The act of homosexuality is a sin. So is lust greed, and hatred. I don't see people picketing against greed everyday. So being able to point out sins in someone's life is not a spiritual gift but rather the gift is being able to help people turn from it. I have never heard of a gay person turning straight from the scores of people picketing hate messages. So why do people picket and protest gays so much? I think it is insecurity and a way to justify their own sin. So if people really care that much about Gays not getting married, then they should do something beside hold a sign or vote for a certain polictian. Try getting to know one.

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  9. Ok, I was going to ignore but I have voices in my head and if I don't let them out to play they get me in trouble. The bible does say that being gay is a sin. I am not gay and I sin everyday. Every unclean thought,every snide remark, every time you gossip is a sin. The fact is that everyone sins everyday. There was only one man that lived a sin free life and luckily He gave me a way to be forgiven. No sin is greater than another in His eyes, a murderer is the same as a gossip. As I see it my job is to hate the sin and love the sinner, just as they love me. Not all Christians are of the wacko variety. I would say for the most part Christians are good folk, you just don't hear enough of us saying 'I love you for who you are'. My Mom told me once that if someone had to tell you that they were a Christian then to be careful, you should be able to see it in the way that they treat others. Very wise woman.

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  10. First off I want to give Anonymous huge kudos!!!!

    Thank you for sticking to your guns and saying what you believe and not playing a political game.

    Again, zero sarcasm I applaud you.

    I disagree with you, but I applaud you, I checked several of the verses Martin Sheen referenced and I think they are all ridiculous gray areas just like you the ones you referenced. I also think homosexuality is the same thing.

    The big point here is you are doing nothing wrong, if you abide what you type here. You have every right to think homosexuality is a sin. EVERY right! You do not have the right to persecute anyone for a victimless action, sin or not and you seem to be pretty strong in the resolve that persecuting homosexuals is not the thing to do. Those are facts. So, more power to ya. I disagree with, but applaud you for speaking your mind and not bandwagonning it here when you were up against a crowd that could have been hostile.

    We do have one little thing we gotta deal with ....

    you said:


    "They want to truth to be something that man comes up with in his on heart or through their own experiences. "What might be truth to you, might not be truth to me." I am sorry but this is a line of crap. Truth doesn't depend on my experience or my thoughts. It exists independently."

    Truth and fact are drastically different based on a person's heart and a person's mind and a person's experiences and most importantly a person faith/beliefs. Not always... but they can be. Some facts are black and white, new growing fescue grass is green, period.

    I believe that Hutchinson, Ks is a great place to raise kids and I believe that to be a fact.

    You might not, thats cool....

    You believe in a God and a Bible that condemns the act of Homosexuality as a sin. I believe in a God and a Bible that is living and adapts as we become a more civilized and intelligent world. Oh wait... you kinda do too right cause some of the stuff in the Bible is gray and some is just ridiculous for the 21st century right?? Just watch the video and then look up the verse. We don't need to stone any one for any of those offenses, right??

    Did you not find your faith, your reason to believe, from your heart and mind and experiences? You were not born a believer in anything. Your faith is what leads you to believe that the Bible is fact! right? Your faith is what leads you to believe homosexuality is a sin because you read it in the Bible and your faith leads you to believe in what the Bible says! Right? You have chosen to say that there are gray areas in the Bible (I agree with that) You have chosen to state that some are not gray... i.e. Homosexuality is a sin ( I agree that SOME are not gray, some are not Gray!!) is that choice in and of itself not your going off of your heart and mind and experiences to decide which are gray and which are not??If that's not the case, how did you decide?? On the gray matter??

    Faith is not a science. It is a fact that we all believe in something, but just believing in something though doesn't make it a fact.

    I bet if we got together anonymous we would have many of the exact same beliefs in the bible. But I am also pretty sure some of our beliefs are different. And that is completely cool......

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  11. Anonymous, can I get a list of the sins please? I want to make sure I have them straight. I know the basic ones (like of course don't murder [unless in cases of war, self defense, capital punishment, etc.]). What are the others? A list would be great, maybe an Excel or something.

    I'm just never sure if I'm sinning or not, so some clarification would be very helpful. For instance, I just took the garbage out in my underwear. Sin?

    Thanks in advance.

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  12. Nate, if you think you're sinning, you are. That's what makes eating ice cream cake for breakfast so exciting.

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  13. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  14. So, this has been (was) a lot of discussion about the role religion plays in attitudes and beliefs about homosexuality. But the prompt was a TV series about government and politics (I due own the whoel series and I LOVE it!)

    I totally respect the individual right to your relgious beliefs - and I think our government should respect your right to practice your religion. And the same goes for everyone else in this country. That also means that your religion does not have the right to dictate laws through our government.

    The founding of this government was radical for many reasons. One being religous pluralism. The families who founded this country were fleeing religious persecution and wanted protection from government and from each other. Another radical idea was the seperation of church and state. That meant not only that we don't have a state sanctioned religion but that religous dogma alone isn't reason enough to create a law.

    The problem here is the government codifaiction of basic human rights as illegal in the United States. (Just as mixed marriages were only a few decades ago.)

    So while on a personal level, I would love to debate with anyone about homosexulaity. In terms of the laws of our government, there is no place for laws to make illegal who you love.

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  15. Kate,

    I love your comment and agree... except with a minor technicality.

    It's not about the Government dictating who you love.

    Marriage in the eyes of our Government has nothing to do with "who you love." It shouldn't... and it currently doesn't.

    Right now 2 people can go to the courthouse, as long as they are of age (which is good, we don't need 8 year olds entering into contracts), and in the eyes of the state enter into a Marriage contract on the courthouse steps. IT can be done with ZERO reference to LOVE at all. And that's fine, that's how it should be because you are right, the Government should have nothing to do with who you love. My point is they don't, they let people marry all the time that have no love.

    This whole Gay Marriage thing is a different issue, the Gov. is saying that 2 adults with the same plumbing in their crotch... can't enter into the same contract as 2 people with opposite crotch plumbing.

    Its stupid.

    ReplyDelete

I love the discussion in the comments.. so... GO FOR IT!

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