I got a book from my Mom yesterday for Christmas. The book is called Ten Eternal Questions
I was glancing thorough the introduction and came across a sentence, a thought that really made me think. The author put a simple phrase in the introduction "...how many people nowadays would agree with Socrates that discussing ideas is the mark of a civilized society?"
Think about that...
When is last time you discussed an idea? Not defend your stance, not argued that you were right and the person you were speaking with was wrong, but discussed an idea.
Pick any idea:
Evolution.
God.
Environmental Issues.
Kharma.
Spiritualism.
Anything???
When was the last time you entered into a conversation with an open mind that would let itself be changed if a more valid point than what you thought to be true was made to you.
When was the last time you watched a bunch of "Scholars" or "Analysts" sitting around a table on T.V. actually analyze anything?
When was the last time you watched a Republican and a Democrat "Discuss" something with the intention of both being smarter at the end of the conversation. Did they have any intentions of learning from the discussion, or were they both just telling the other "I am right and you are wrong!"
Do you sit and discuss with your kids or do you force them to always act like they believe your way is right.
What if the Atheist "Discussed" Faith with the Christian to attempt to at least get an understanding of why they believe. What if the Christian just discussed Faith with the Atheist to come closer to an understanding of why they don't believe. Wat if they just discussed with trying to persuade?
What if the Republican listened to the concerns of the Democrat and they both worked together with a goal of a better place, a happier medium, instead of just fighting to destroy each others ideas and credibility along party lines. (There is little to no "Intelligent discussion" in politics, from either side)
I have a very solid set of beliefs, morals and principles, but even more solid is my commitment to listening, to discussing, to learning. We have to get away from "I am right and you are wrong". We have to get back to "Discussing" ideas with a mission of understanding.
In the same breathe I want to say this, don't be wishy-washy, don't waffle on the things you know are right. I know this can sound contradictory. We were told as kids to be strong, stand up for ourselves be resilient in our beliefs. All that is sound advice, but it can all be done with an open mind.
I was raised a Missouri-Synod Lutheran. I am still a Missouri Synod Lutheran. I am firm in my Christian beliefs, but I am very open-minded about it. Does that make sense? Does it seem contradictory? It's not. I am 100% solid in what my Faith is, but... I will sit, listen and have an open mind about Faith and Religion with anyone who is willing to have a "Discussion" with me. You won't change my mind, because I am firm in my beliefs, but the information you present or the discussion we have could very well lead me to changing my own mind on certain details. And I will not attempt to force my Beliefs/opinions on you! Sound fair? I am convinced it is the fairest way to operate in this world. I am also convinced that if more folks operated that way, we would have a happier more progressive world.
I really think this book will lead to more blog posts... sorry if you think it's gibberish.
Thoughts??
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Cody, Thanks for posting this. I for one am all on board with this topic. I personally feel that confidence in what you believe is what makes a person able to openly listen and learn from others without having to "defend" what they believe, or think, at every turn. If a person says they believe in Love then they should, at the very least, be willing to actually listen to what other people think, to learn where they are coming from. If we can't at least do that, we might as well say we believe in arrogance and/or ignorance. I too am a Christian and make every attempt to listen with the posture of a student to all whom I come in contact with. If we look at the lengths to which God went, to be able to completely relate with us, or at least help us understand his ability to relate with us, then shouldn't we be willing to do the same for Every other Human Being. We may just learn something we don't know and help each other. Good stuff Man.
Love Wins, Jason Nather
Great comment Jason...
I love the concept of learning from things we don't know... inreality, isnt that the only way to ever learn... to admit we don't know everything??
Let me jump in here, after all I bought the book - ha! Our family has always been great about this, we can have discussions, learning experiences, enlightening times -whatever -without arguements or screaming matches - discussions! I love them and probably instigate them a little by buying "the little books" or bringing up "the little topices". Let's get it straight from the beginning, I'm not the intelligent one, but love listening and learning and feel I'm open minded but firm in my beliefs - just as Cody stated. I watched a documentary the other week that was amazing - several very intelligent, highly educated – It was so good and went on for over an hour - there were Christians, Muslims, Atheists, Theists (noun 1. the belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the universe, without rejection of revelation (distinguished from deism ).
2. belief in the existence of a god or gods (opposed to atheism ).
individuals from all over the world that came together to discuss whether there really is a God with all the "evil" in this world.) - others that I can't remember - they brought up the Holocaust, the hurricanes, the droughts, diseases, had powerpoints, documents, - no one lost their cool, just intelligent discussion and great information. Now this did not budge me on my faith in God but I learned a great deal and enjoyed it tremendously,-I could do that daily! It might have swayed some folks. Anyway, some things, important things, things that involve millions of peoples lives could be resolved in this fashion - you cannot go in with a closed mind, unwilling to learn, to hear, to see that someone might have a little more experience or knowledge or a better way - no matter what color they are, what religion they are or what political stance they take! If they are wrong, speak up, but can it not be in an intelligent, kind, explaining manner - that they, too, might learn something - as a parent to a child should always be. Don't ever tell me you can't learn from your child - I've done it for 34 years - just by listening - but believe me, he's not always right.
Of course discussing ideas is important...that is why a classic, liberal arts education is so critical...for everyone.. and it should continue past formal schooling.
Unfortunately, in my experience, "open" discussions without clear parameters involving folks with differing viewpoints regarding faith/religion do NOT end well. I try to steer clear, although I am quite firm in my philosophical stances.
And, for what it is worth, I think there have been some "intelligent discussions" about politics, here on this blog, no matter what Cody says.
And if I may add for those interested...I have always enjoyed the Templeton Foundation's presentation of "Big Questions." They get a wide range of articulate viewpoints.
http://www.templeton.org/bigquestions/
Cody, what you describe has been going on more or less on your blog for the last year or so. You've had Republicans and Democrats, Athiests and Christians, Jolene and sane people talking about all kinds of things without it turning into a flame war. Right?
Maybe it'd be good for you to write a post called "what I've learned from this blog". I'd be interested to know if the benefits of listening to others in an open-minded and civilized way has changed your mind (or softened your stance) about anything.
Thanks for all the great comments. Jolene,
I love what you are saying. I also love your ability to stand firm while having civilized discussions.
One thing though...
You said: "While I don't believe the Bible is ever evolving (sorry Cody), I do believe it was intended to be taken as a whole."
With matters of Faith, I completely respect that, but, with Social and civilization matters... do you not agree that we as a society have evolved and need to be able to use our evolved intelligence to realize that some of the Social and Community values represented in the Bible are from a different time?
Dave,
I agree Faith/Religion discussions can go bad. I believe that is because it often turns into "I am right and you are wrong". In matters of faith or beliefs... there is no right or wrong.
If we discuss things in that manner... it is less likely to get heated. Obviously both sides have to be willing to discuss that way... or both will end up defensive.
Statements like "your'e an idiot for believing in an imaginary spirit" or "Your'e an uncivilized heathen, bound for a fiery eternity for not having believing in God" aren't discussions, they are insults.
Starting out a discussion with more of a "I choose to believe this because.... and it's cool if you don't" --- In my opinion, can lead to very cool in-depth discussions between folks with differing opinions.
I kinda have Pride in your and I's friendship because I feel like we have great discussions (on this blog and elsewhere) even though the only thing we really agree on is how much the 92-93 Salthawk football team kicked ass!
I also agree there has been some great political discussions on this site and give you a huge share of the credit for that.
Mom,
I agree with you as well and have some of the greatest discussions in my life with you and as I have matured, I have seen how great of a conversationalist you are. I don't know if my mind has opened a ton or if yours has (or both) in the last 2 decades, but its been alot of fun and very insightful.
Thanks again guys... this blog is free therapy for me!! :)
Nate,
Great idea.
I will do it!
I am also officially inviting You, Dave, Jolene and Pam (my mom) to do the same.
write a guestpost for codytalks titled "What I have learned from Reading Codytalks"
Will any of you do it??
What I've Learned from Reading Codytalks" - this is easy for me. I've learned that several different personalities can come together on various, hot topics and issues and express their opinions - very intelligently - I might say - and I, being the type of person I am, always am amazed at how they truly believe and live those ideas and beliefs and are able to prove that through their blogs. I know most of these bloggers and have for years and am proud that they don't constantly bow down and agree and pat each other on the back (they have not done this since they were friends in grade school) - but is that not truly friendship? That you can have "discussions" (Dave and Cody - keep your cool - you're mature now) and you both know and respect the intelligent level of each other - listen, respect, smile, but you'll never always agree, never - that's why there is chocolate and vanilla - the world needs both of you - I learn from both of you - do I always agree with both of you - no, but through the blog, it stretches each of your minds, challenges all of you, I find research is being done on different topics of interest and points are being made here - there may never be a "general agreement" but think of the information dug up and provided through the process - I love this and I'm an old grandma! Don't ever stop this stuff - it keeps your mind rolling, it keeps the world revolving and your friendships going! You are all great people and, Jolene, you are a blessing to this blog that we all are thankful for - there should definitely be a "get together" at some point! I learn constantly from this and I can't imagine that there aren't more out there doing the same!! Thanks to all of you!
Jolene - I'm anxious for you to answer Cody's question "do you not agree that we as a society have evolved and need to be able to use our evolved intelligence to realize that some of the Social and Community values represented in the Bible are from a different time?" I have an opinion but "I'm a mother" - maybe I'm not sure what he is trying to say here.
Jolene, I couldn't wait to get up this AM and read your answer, now the anticipation of hearing Cody's response is even greater! ha! You are awesome and I have missed you also - please don't forget the "what I have learned" blog also! I will "learn" from that also. Scripture is still the "way of life" for me - since I have retired, I have made it a challenge to study it more and research it - whether it is just me and the desire for it to be what I want it to be or if it is as it is, I am amazed how it pertains to my daily life, daily problems, daily blessings. Again, I go just go back to "faith".
Jolene... what church do you go to? I'm dying to know what church has an inerrant view of the bible, and a population that is half gay.
This is gonna get long and arduous but be incredible.
Jolene,
IMHO the folks that wouldn't receive the aid from the US where the ones judging. They are the ones who are not willing accept people.
I don't think anyone should change the Bible. I don't think anyone should change any book of History. I truly believe the Bible has History in it and we shouldn't tamper with it. I do however think that we should study History and learn from it. The Bible talks of 'The proper way to handle your slaves'(paraphrase) 'who should and should not be stoned' (paraphrase) 'Animal sacrifices' (paraphrase), Abraham (a highly revered man in the Bible) was on the verge of sacrificing his son and when stopped by an Angel was then presented a Ram to take the place of his son. Do you not believe we have grown, evolved as a society to understand that God doesn't want us to actually continue those practices? I am not contending we should "Change the Bible" I am contending we should continue to learn from it and grow. I am contending that the study of it and the study (introspection, discussion) of any and all beliefs, just makes us smarter and more in touch with what we actually do believe.
I kinda dislike the Hitler reference... I believe Hitler was trying to take the bible TOO LITERALLY" not that he was in fact changing it.
Don't get me wrong Jolene I am a Christian and have read/studied the Bible (I know Mom not enough!!) but thats what I have done, studied it as something that I want to learn from and grow, not just regurgitate and memorize.
The study of History is for the purpose of bettering the present/future, I think! Its not to memorize facts or win trivia contests. If we don't learn from History and try to repeat successes and not repeat mistakes, why the heck study it. (Unless you have a goal of winning Jeopardy)
Thats my view of the Bible, a History book inspired by a God that wanted it to be studied and not just read for the rest of time.
To go back to the beginning of my comment...
If one of the Main themes of the Bible is that Man is not the Judge of other men...?
How can some hungry folks in Africa use the Bible to Judge that US Aid is not good enough for them??
Seems to just drip Hypocrisy to me.
None of this is my bailiwick, but if you type "biblical criticism" or "criticism of the bible" into Wikipedia, you will see that you aren't the first to have engage in this debate, so I do not expect a resolution.
And if you pardon me for a moment, this all reminds me of an episode of the Simpsons, when Bart poignantly stated: "Don't you get it? It's all Christianity, people! The little stupid differences are nothing next to the big stupid similarities!"
Sometimes it pisses me off that Jolene puts out such well thought out responses, makes me think too hard. Makes my comments seem so unintelligent.
(Just kidding Jolene! :) thanks for the great comment and for making our little conversation her lively)
This blog really is great therapy for me.
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